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Author Topic: Arjeu Super Croix (Super Cross) Ref.666-corrected title.
Jean-Sébastien Venne
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Member # 1181

posted November 27, 2006 11:09 PM     Profile for Jean-Sébastien Venne   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Sébastien Venne     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello. This is my first posting here. I like mechanical, interlocking and entanglements puzzles. I have a small collection of about fifty items.

The hardest puzzle of my collection is made by the french manufacturer Arjeu, it's called either Ushuaia, Triple Cross or Triple Towers. Catalog number is 666. It's a six stars puzzle according to Arjeu's ratings, the hardest rating of all, and to my knowledge, the only one such rated in their catalog.

It's an 18 pieces (6x6x6) burr type puzzle. The minimal number of steps I found to remove each of the first 17 pieces is as follow:

1-1-3-3-7-1-2-8-8-1-2-2-1-2-1-1-1

I am not sure how to classify this puzzle, (Which level is it?) Neither am I sure about how to count moves (When you first move one piece some distance, but then continuing to move that piece in the same direction would drag another piece, does this count as one or two moves?)

I would like it if someone could show me a link explaining the detailed way to classify complex burr-type puzzles.

Three years ago, I took a college course to learn CNC programming, and as the final project, I choose to build a solid brass and aluminium replica of this puzzle, originally made of wood. Preliminary design were made with Autocad, then further design and simulations were made with Catia V5, G-code generation was made with Surfcam, and the actual machining was made with a Supermax CNC mill. The lenght of each piece is 180 mm.

You can download a 12MB Zip file containing actual photos of this project, Hi-res Catia images and movie slideshow of the pictures at This link:

After clicking on that link, click on "DOWNLOAD PUZZLE IMAGES SLIDESHOW.ZIP FROM OUR DEDICATED SERVERS" to download the zip. file.

You can also watch a movie I made with the Catia V5 software describing the disassembly procedure directly at this Youtube link.

Please take not that this movie shows two or three unnecessary moves, one about a piece moving down due to gravity, and others about moving pieces separately while they can be moved together.

I would like your comments about this puzzle. Personally, I think it is exceptional, the very best of my small collection, but I don't call myself a puzzle expert, so if you know about harder puzzles of the same kind that are available, let me know!

[ November 27, 2006: Message edited by: Jean-Sébastien Venne ]

[ November 30, 2006: Message edited by: Jean-Sébastien Venne ]


Posts: 3 | From: | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lionel Depeux
Multiple
Member # 159

posted November 28, 2006 03:28 AM     Profile for Lionel Depeux   Author's Homepage   Email Lionel Depeux     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Jean-Sébastien,

Given the information above, this burr would in fact be a "1.1 level" one. You may check the rules regarding level definition on the following IBM site, which is quite famous :
http://www.research.ibm.com/BurrPuzzles/BurrInfo.html

I think I do know (and also have) the Arjeu burr you're referring to : it was designed by Jean-Paul Pierlot, and was even featured in an article in the "late" French magazine "Jeux & Stratégie", in the early 80's. This article was about Jean Carle, who has to be the most famous French collector, as well as a designer.


Best regards,
Lionel

[ November 28, 2006: Message edited by: Lionel Depeux ]


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Jean-Sébastien Venne
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Member # 1181

posted November 30, 2006 02:45 PM     Profile for Jean-Sébastien Venne   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Sébastien Venne     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thank you for those informations, Lionel.

I already saw the IBM link you mentioned, but I thought it was irrelevant to my puzzle because it only refers to three and six pieces burrs.

I also thought that the level of a burr provided some indication about it's difficulty or complexity, but it seems it's not like that. Even if it only takes one step to remove each of the first two pieces of my puzzle, it doesn't mean it is a simple one.

I did some research, and I found that another puzzle designed by JP Pierlot bears the same appearance as mine. I also found out that I got confused about the puzzle names.

Here is a page I found about a puzzle identical to mine, (it is called "Tricolore" there):
http://www.3dpuzzles.nl/puzzles/tricolore/engdescription.htm

I also found two scans of the instruction sheet that came with another puzzle designed by mr. Pierlot (The puzzle name there is "Triple Croix"):

Recto:

Verso:


(I found these two scans at http://200cassetete.free.fr/ )

Note that Tricolore and Triple Croix are not the same puzzle at all, also note that on the Triple Croix instructions, "Jeux Descartes" is mentioned on the bottom of page one, so maybe your puzzle is that one, not the same as mine.

I finally found, hidden at the bottom of a storage box, the instructions that came with my puzzle, and I can confirm that JP Pierlot designed it, but I got the puzzle name wrong. My puzzle is called "Super Croix", and I confirm that Arjeu’s catalog number for it is 666. These instructions shows a general view of the puzzle, a diagram of each pieces, but doesn’t give the solution, but rather a mail adress in France where you could request the detailed solution. These instructions also mentions three ways to take apart/assemble my puzzle.

The first way, described as "unhealthy", allows the tilting of pieces, making the disassembly much easier, but the assembly much harder, and that is true: Shortly after taking off the first four pieces like you can see in my video, I can tilt one piece, and this allows the puzzle to be split in two, and then, once split, the pieces doesn't hold much together and do "fall off", like you mentioned in the private message you sent me.

The second way, the "healthy" one, forbids the tilting of pieces, and by doing this, the puzzle remains "solid" until the ninth piece is removed. This is the procedure I animated in the Youtube video.

The third way, much harder, still doesn't allow the tilting of pieces, but also requires to remove piece O before piece A (according to the Tricolore diagram linked above). In my movie, piece A is the fifth piece removed, piece O is the sixth. The instructions says that this third way to take apart the puzzle takes forthy more steps than the second way. I shamefully admit that I haven't found the solution of this one yet.

[ November 30, 2006: Message edited by: Jean-Sébastien Venne ]


Posts: 3 | From: | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jean-Sébastien Venne
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Member # 1181

posted November 30, 2006 05:27 PM     Profile for Jean-Sébastien Venne   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Sébastien Venne     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My friend scanned the instructions that came with my puzzle. Here they are:

Recto:


Verso:


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Jack Krijnen
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Member # 402

posted November 30, 2006 05:41 PM     Profile for Jack Krijnen   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Krijnen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Jean-Sébastien,

more puzzles of the same type (and many other puzzles) can be found on the site "Puzzle will be played...": http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~rh5k-isn/Puzzle/burr-18.xml#burr-18

Have fun,
Jack


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Guillaume Largounez
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Member # 1726

posted May 04, 2010 07:28 PM     Profile for Guillaume Largounez   Author's Homepage   Email Guillaume Largounez     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello Jean-Sébastien,
I see that, like me, you have been fascinated by this puzzle.

I knew you youtube video already, but unfortunately, the pictures of your project are not online anymore. I would like to see them.

Did you find the third solution ? If not, I describe it here (in French) : http://collection.cassetete.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46

If you're looking for other puzzles of the same kind, I recommend you the Condor's Peeper, available at MrPuzzle : http://www.mrpuzzle.com.au/prod259.htm

It was designed by the guy who posted the message just above mine
Congratulations for this brillant creation, Jack !

I don't know many 18 pieces burrs. Actually, I only know a third one : Coming of Age mkII, by Brian Young. It is quite different of the two previous ones. More frustrating, I'd say, because I get completely lost in an ocean of possibilities. And it has more than 7000 solutions, though I'm not sure that any one can be found by a human. I've not tried to find one different than the three ones given in MrPuzzle's website yet.

JP Pierlot's Super Croix, on the other hand, is built without any hole, which severely constrains the possibilities. However, the solution reamins very hard to find because of the complexities of the pieces.

Condor's Peeper is a bit different. The disassembly is extremely long. It takes 62 moves to get the first piece out. The sequence is very interesting, because it consists in very logical sequences, that allow a progression, while featuring some wrong ways in which we can get lost. Though the logic in them only becomes clear when you get the first piece out, and then replay the sequence back and forth.
But they invlove few pieces, and we quickly get familiar with them, and capable of going back to the initial state once lost. That disassembling sequence is a bit like a labyrinth.

To give an idea, I got Super Croix disassembled by a friend at the age of 13. It took me 10 hours to put it back together by myself.

Now, at the age of 34 and a bit more experience in burrs, I didn't try to built Coming of Age MkII by myself yet, but the disassembling took me about 1 hour. Same time after having rebuilt it following the two other solutions given on youtube.

Condor's Peeper took me about 3 or 4 hours to get disassembled. I then struggled during 10 or 15 hours trying to build it again, but failed.
Finding the position of each piece is easy, after having manipulated them for hours during the disassembling. The problem is to put everything in order. I fell in two different traps. I got the wrong starting configuration tring to start from the position where the first piece goes out (the red and the grey pieces move all the time, how was I supposed to remember their configuration after 62 moves ? ), and trying to find back the right configuration starting from the solved position, and imagining the missing piece was there, I systematically omitted to imagine an allowed movement for it. And an obvious one !

I've got a question for you, Jack : I asked MrPuzzle if it was possible to get a bigger version of Condor's Peeper, but they told me that they had to make only one serial of it, and it was only available in this size.

Do bigger versions (still tri-coloured) exist ?


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John Devost
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Member # 792

posted May 04, 2010 10:54 PM     Profile for John Devost   Author's Homepage   Email John Devost     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That's quite interesting Guillaume! I wasn't aware of Brian's 'YouTube' (assembly) video of the 'Coming of Age MKII' puzzle...I have a spare copy of Goh Pit Khiam's 'Burrloon' in case you'd like to give it a go...if you're interested send me an email at puzzleparadise@gmail.com

Take care, john


Posts: 49 | From: | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jack Krijnen
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Member # 402

posted May 05, 2010 06:02 AM     Profile for Jack Krijnen   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Krijnen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Guillaume,

Nice to hear you enjoy Condor's Peeper! If someone made them, there will be larger examples of it, but they are not commercially available. The market is limited on 18 piece burrs. If you like to see more 18 piece burr designs, take a trip to Ishino's site: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~rh5k-isn/Puzzle/index.html.en
To play with more, I'm afraid you've got to start woodworking yourself, or find one to do it for you!

Happy puzzling,
Jack.


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Guillaume Largounez
Multiple
Member # 1726

posted May 05, 2010 04:36 PM     Profile for Guillaume Largounez   Author's Homepage   Email Guillaume Largounez     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by John Devost:
That's quite interesting Guillaume! I wasn't aware of Brian's 'YouTube' (assembly) video of the 'Coming of Age MKII' puzzle...

Comparing Brian and Barry 's videos of the Coming of Age gives a good idea of the difference between the 10mm size (MrPuzzle's craftsman range) and the 15mm size (MrPuzzle's standard range).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asVLJ3QCqo8
(original level 19.5.1.1.7.1.1.1.2 assembly by Brian, craftsman version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0nLI_jSyY
(level 14.10.7.3.5.12.10 assembly by Barry, standard version)

Beware that not all MrPuzzle's craftsman puzzle are this size. Bill Cutler's Mega Six craftsman is the same size as the standard. I've got both versions, and the craftsman one is fantastic.

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Krijnen:
If you like to see more 18 piece burr designs, take a trip to Ishino's site: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~rh5k-isn/Puzzle/index.html.en

Aaaaaargh !

That's a LOT of them !
And it seems that Alfons Eyckmans and you can't stop creating new ones Seveal ones are dated 2010.

I must have a closer look at them. I wonder how they all feel.

That's a program that tells the numer of solutions and the number of moves isn't it ?
Could it output a tree of the possible moves from the final configuration ?
Something that would tell if there are many possibilities, variants, loops, or wrong sequences that would loose the player in a maze...

I got lost in a quite deep sequence trying to assemble your Condor's Peeper... I had to go back a lot of moves to correct the mistake and start again, not mentionning that this sequence ended with many nodes in the configuration tree, in such a way that it took me a loooong time to realize that it couldn't work. The puzzle looked so much alike as it does in the right configuration...

[ May 05, 2010: Message edited by: Guillaume Largounez ]


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Jack Krijnen
Multiple
Member # 402

posted May 06, 2010 04:48 AM     Profile for Jack Krijnen   Author's Homepage   Email Jack Krijnen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guillaume Largounez:
That's a program that tells the numer of solutions and the number of moves isn't it ?
Could it output a tree of the possible moves from the final configuration ?

Ishino uses BurrTools and some of his own programs. BurrTools is a fantastic open source program written by Andreas Roever. With a bit of googling you'll find it in no time. But it does not satisfy your wish for a tree of possibilities; I'm not familiar with any program that does.

[ May 06, 2010: Message edited by: Jack Krijnen ]


Posts: 34 | From: | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

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